Class Limits, Updated April 18th, 2009 Options

[mike!]

Dustbowl:
- Demomen: Four
- Engineers: Two
- Heavies: Unlimited
- Medics: Unlimited
- Pyros: Four
- Scouts: Four
- Snipers: Unlimited
- Soldiers: Unlimited
- Spies: Unlimited


2Fort:
- Demomen: Four
- Engineers: Two
- Heavies: Unlimited
- Medics: Unlimited
- Pyros: Four
- Scouts: Unlimited
- Snipers: Unlimited
- Soldiers: Unlimited
- Spies: Unlimited


Arena:
- No Class Limits

This post has been edited by «tCo» leV!: Apr 17 2009, 11:26 PM

Reason for edit: Changed dustbowl scout limit from unlimited to four

[Virally Yours]

Why do useful classes like pyro and demo have limits yet spies and snipers can fill out a whole team if they all felt like it?

I think some form of limits is a good thing, but at least be fair. Besides, noob spam happens from soldiers as much as demomen.

[Simbamatic]

because a team of only pyro/demo or all pyro or demo would ruin any team. And a server of too many of both is a stale mate. No team of just scouts/spies/snipers is going to win.

[Virally Yours]

because a team of only pyro/demo or all pyro or demo would ruin any team. And a server of too many of both is a stale mate. No team of just scouts/spies/snipers is going to win.

A team of scouts/spies/snipers will still ruin that team. I see your point, but if a ton of noobs get owned by a heavy and all swap to sniper and spy, it's not fair to the rest of the team that will consequently lose. At least a mass of pyros and demos will still be able to kill stuff.

And I'm not saying to tweak the demo/pyro limit, I'm just saying it'd make more sense and be fairer to add limits to every class.

[Simbamatic]

We had limits on every class basically save a few.

But recently I asked Lev to remove most of them, as I was getting word of people not playing in our server because of the limits. So we're restructuring them.

[Virally Yours]

Personally I think you guys should put a limit of 4 (arbitrary value, just seemed right) across all classes, or have no limits at all.

I'd lean towards no limits, to keep the noobs happy, and for when the server's low and people feel like goofing off.

[Simbamatic]

I think we're gunna vote to put engies back down to two.

[Raz]

I think we're gunna vote to put engies back down to two.

I do I do I do!

[mike!]

I really wish we could settle on one thing, and not mess with them anymore, but that can never be the case.

7:41 PM - miber: for me personally, the fewer the better. most of the time, even with a 3 engy limit, there's only 1-2 engies, and even with 3 - most of the time it's not that bad. however, there was a recent instance where 3 was particularly nasty, but i think it had as much to do with the general team balance as it did with the SGs.

7:42 PM - miber: SGs are only part of the issue, the other part is good the teams are, and how well the other teammates can help defend the sentries

7:42 PM - miber: 2 sentries can be rough if they're guarded by good players, and 3 sentries can be cake if the team sucks

There is no real way to limit the engineers without angering someone else, and then again there are rarely 3 engineers on the team, and they are all seemingly easy to get rid of if you do it right, most of the time ubers are REQUIRED but they do come in handy.

Stop playing classes that die easily by the robot gun, and then I think you will stop complaining so much. Classes like Scout and Spy have low HP, and are easily defeated by the powerful and quick-thinking robot gun.

[ruffian]

There is no real way to limit the engineers without angering someone else, and then again there are rarely 3 engineers on the team, and they are all seemingly easy to get rid of if you do it right, most of the time ubers are REQUIRED but they do come in handy.

Stop playing classes that die easily by the robot gun, and then I think you will stop complaining so much. Classes like Scout and Spy have low HP, and are easily defeated by the powerful and quick-thinking robot gun.

The class limits are like a double-edged sword, you raise limits on defense (like from 2 to 3 engineers), but it makes it harder for others to play the classes they would like to on offense (scout, for example).

[Raz]

Personally I think you guys should put a limit of 4 (arbitrary value, just seemed right) across all classes, or have no limits at all.

I'd lean towards no limits, to keep the noobs happy, and for when the server's low and people feel like goofing off.

I really love going against 5 sentries. It's so fun not having a chance to win what so ever.

I really wish we could settle on one thing, and not mess with them anymore, but that can never be the case.

There is no real way to limit the engineers without angering someone else, and then again there are rarely 3 engineers on the team, and they are all seemingly easy to get rid of if you do it right, most of the time ubers are REQUIRED but they do come in handy.

Stop playing classes that die easily by the robot gun, and then I think you will stop complaining so much. Classes like Scout and Spy have low HP, and are easily defeated by the powerful and quick-thinking robot gun.

Did you mean 'aren't'? Against three sentries I would have to disagree.

Regarding the scout and spy comment. The scout has always been rendered completely useless by any one sentry that is level 2 or 3. Sure the scout can corner sentries and pistol them to death. However that is near impossible in a full server due to teammates defending the sentry. So yes the scout is a stupid method for sentries. This class however is not what im playing when I complain about 3 sentries.

The spy isn't so useless. Sapping is a great strategy to help the team take out sentries. That is if their teammates are smart enough to attack when they are sapped. Given that not everyone has a microphone in this game, and that not everyone pays attention to the radio messages. Add to that the fact that some people have microphones but simply do not speak. Then include the fact that these are public servers where not everyone is as inclined to help out team work as others. I've seen miber switch teams to help even the score and I'm sure that's kept a lot of people form rage quitting. I've also seen someone join and then go to the spectator team and wait over 15 minutes for a slot to open on the winning team. So please do not give me crap about the team working with each other to win the game. Anyway Those are just a few things that limit teams from working with each other.

When the engineers were limited to two. As well as when both teams were fairly even. I think the game was quite fun. Each side had to put in a decent amount of effort to win.

With three engineers I feel the red team has to do next to nothing to defend when the sentries are in a position that all three attack the blu team. Add to that the pyro's air blast and you've got yourself a losing team. Add to that ONE(1). Uber that the red team uses and it is just ridiculous. Now you've got red spawn camping blue and people leaving the server. I can vogue for this because it happened earlier.

Finally I would like to say that I like how the class limits got randomly changed. I wasn't included in that at all. They were also changed at a moments notice of 1 or 2 people (I only know of one at the moment. Maybe it was only one) bring it up. However when the limits are requested to change in a direction that you do not agree with. It seems to be very difficult to have it done.

[Simbamatic]

Note: He was hesitant on taking the limits off at all. It was my charm that persuaded him.

I was doing it because people like Interrobang weren't playing in the server because of certain limits. I miss playing with him, he was fun. So I told him I'd look into it. Now he hasn't been around very often anyways, so for all I care, the limits can be set back to what they were a few weeks ago.

[mike!]

CODE

sm_classrestrict_red_engineers 2
sm_classrestrict_blue_engineers 2

[Simbamatic]

Neat.

[Myrmidon]

Two engineers seemed to be working out. We tried a change and it didn't work. No big deal.

[Spazzdude]

Ruffian already said it, double edged sword this is.

Too many engineers is a issue in itself like Raz brought up. A pryo w/ airblast tosses the uber into the air and the many sentries do the rest via pushback. Plus the possibility of a red uber.

But, there have been instances where blu just came in and staggered 3 ubers. But we aren't yelling about capping medics.

The thing is Red has a HUGE advantage in dustbowl. Setup time, a single point to defend [therefore superior numbers in that area]. Well defended sentries, a reliable place to fall back to, etc. And add in the fact that if the Red team is somewhat decent, it's a fight to even REACH the sentries. 3 Red Demomen, a soldier & a pyro doing their jobs is frustrating enough without being backed by 3+ sentries.

With the only built in Red disadvantage being a long respawn time. Though the respawn time can be written off as in most cases every red death is about 2 or 3 blue deaths. The least we can do is limit their engineers.

Yes, if blu is a good team and can coordinate they will eventually push through. Whether it be 2 or 3 or a ridiculous 5.

I honestly think the issue here is not the engineer limit at heart, but many people's tendency to just jump into the class when they feel they are loosing too much on red. People identify engineer too much with defense so if they are loosing they feel as though their team needs more. Thats when they see a limit they cry about it.

Getting upset when you can't be your favorite class is completely different than getting upset when you can't flood your point with sentries.

[mike!]

Getting upset when you can't be your favorite class is completely different than getting upset when you can't flood your point with sentries.

I definitely agree with this, but how can we let everyone know? We can't. It's damn near impossible. And it makes me sad. Lots.

[IceMan]

I typically like to swap to whatever class is needed. Usually I swap between heavy, demo, and engineer. As far as sentries go, from someone who has played almost 200 hours as a demo, no sentry is safe. There is no sentry that I can not take out. Just give me time to find the right place to assault from. Sentry guns are much less of a threat than most people realize. To me, the only class who is really effected by it majorly is Scout as they can't roam freely through a base.

The problem I see with class limits, especially on defensive classes such as an engineer, is when you have a noob who takes the engineer role and sets up a sentry in either of the sewers on 2fort while the base is left uncovered. Personally I see relatively little point to having a sentry in the sewers. It makes for a semi base of operations and may serve as a distraction to the other team to attack it rather than go for the intel but it isn't all that useful. However, as mentioned above, if you don't have limits, you will have a team of 5 - 6 engineers who will, eventually, lose the game as taking out sentry guns is not hard

Also, as noted above, many times you will see a staggered uber come into the base and completely wipe out everything in it. It seems that most people are complaining about limiting defensive classes rather than offensive ones. I can sort of understand this but rather than complaining about there being too many of one class on a team, I'd like to see people adjust rather than complain. No team is truly unbeatable. Even a team of 6+ engineers can easily be defeated as long as the other team works together to do so. This game is, in fact, named Teamfortress and there is a reason for that. Teams are supposed to adjust to different strategies in order to win. It's been that way since the olden days of Quakeworld where I got my start with TF.

Either way you look at it, class limitations or the lack there of both have consequences. As long as you don't get noobs taking on the roles of engineer or other important classes on a map all of the time, there should be no problem. Nothing sucks worse than having some noob not knowing what he's doing and not listening to advice taking a class that is needed.

And just to make myself clear, I'm not hating on noobs, I am simply noting the difference between players as far as skill with a certain class. We all know that some people play a particular class better than us.

IceMan

This post has been edited by IceMan: Jan 4 2009, 02:18 PM

[Xerophinity]

Why do useful classes like pyro and demo have limits yet spies and snipers can fill out a whole team if they all felt like it?

I think some form of limits is a good thing, but at least be fair. Besides, noob spam happens from soldiers as much as demomen.

But nothing stop a team from going all Sniper and ruining the server.
I've seen it happen on 2fort, don't tell me it doesn't. We get 5 or 6 snipers on either one or both teams and it just totals the game into a "find a way out of the base" match. Not fun.
Then it cause more snipers to appear on the other team until somebody has teh sense to say "Hey guys, how about we STOP playing Sniper?"

[Phill]

We had a 4v5 on well with 4 scouts and we rolled the 5 man team like 3-4 times in a row till TJ switched.

As for 2fort I think a 3 sniper limit would be fabulous.